FIFF22丨DAY7 Roundtable "Abdomen": The so-called "Bushido", but the body maintained by an illusion, deceives itself

Madilyn 2021-12-22 08:01:08

The host Northwest is gone

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the first round table of the 7th day of the 22nd Faroe Island Film Festival main competition round table. I am the host, Northwest has turned into nothing. The first film we discussed was directed by Masaki Kobayashi. "Slicing Abdomen", please talk about the reasons for this score based on your own site scoring, and briefly talk about your feelings about this movie!

Souvenir guests wind Pro

I gave 2 points for "Abdominal Cut", which is actually very good from the perspective of perception, but when I think about it, I think it has a lot of deceptiveness. From the perspective of the script, I don't want to see "Rashomon" all the time. Both of these two parts promote the progress of the plot by switching the narrator, but compared to the two, it feels like a repetition and regression of Hashimoto Shinobu. When "Rashomon" was adapted from "Secret Bamboo", the original work has been transformed into a guiding narrative which is equal, more labyrinth and the most obscure of human nature. In this one, the narrator is no longer just a different participant in the event, but a vertical comparison in class: the beginning and the end are a record, symbolizing the highest power and the right to speak in history, but it is constructed away from the film. The truth is the most remote; the second narrative is the housekeeper, who symbolizes the second class under the highest power; the last is of course Tatsuya Nakadai. He is the most downhearted, but the lowest class is also far away. The truth is nearest. Masaki Kobayashi uses the narration of the movie itself to give the lowest level to express his criticism of Bushido. Then, if the absolute justice at the bottom is given by the screenwriter, then is this criticism of the classics also a kind of historical nihilism? The uncertainty of history and narration has become more clear than that of Rashomon. Of pointing. Is the Bushido that the script wants to attack here, as long as we leave such a specific era of "travelers begging for food," such a more specific and limited environment can't be talked about? Bushido may be just a facade, but such criticism is only a surface.

Souvenir guests Europe. Yin

I gave "Cutting Abdomen" 4 stars. Although Masaki Kobayashi has two golden trains on Faroe Island, and even though I personally have not been so interested in Japanese movies and culture, this movie is still my only choice for golden trains. If there are no restrictions on multiple awards and no consideration of dividing the pork, I will also award the script and the actor together to "Sliced ​​Belly". The story of "Cutting the Abdomen" actually needs to rely heavily on the understanding of Japanese Bushido culture, but under Hashimoto Shinobu's extremely accurate plays and Kobayashi Masaki's calm and always hidden sense of rhythm, movie viewers can escape the culture Shackled by the background, empathize with the people in the film and understand their respective positions and plights. In the first half of the film, there may be more contempt for the behavior of the "degenerate" samurai represented by Qianqianyanqiu, but after experiencing the cruel gaze of the "bamboo cut belly" in the middle, after switching the perspective of the narrator, I stood there. A few dozen minutes ago, his opponent began to despise his superficiality. The full presentation of this two-party position just reveals the complexity, ambiguity, and true sorrow of the event. It is speculated that formalist films quickly show strong realistic value-and the new reality of Italy. It feels exactly the same. This alone can only be counted as subtle, and it is difficult to become a god. At the end of "Cutting the Abdomen", the spearhead is directed at the deepest thing behind the cultural symbols-the spirit of Bushido, or simply called "Tao, all kinds of "Tao"-the author also completed the "Tao" in this work. The establishment and elimination of "", in my opinion, is the expression of the highest achievement of genre works. "Don Quixote" and "The Deer Tripod" are the same. And the extension of "Tao" is not limited to the spirit of the warrior, the spirit of martial arts, and the knight. Spirit, the heroism of the western cowboys. All "belief" and other things can be promoted and associated at will!

Moderator northwest naught

Looking forward to seeing the wonderful confrontation between the two.

Guest aof

I gave "Abdominal Cut" 4 points. The first Kobayashi Masaki. This film uses two time and space to narrate, the combination of speech and picture is excellent. At the same time, there is no lack of exquisite static composition, and the favorite scene is the duel on the flat ground with weeds dancing. The Bushido spirit carried by the armor was thrown away, and the sound of gunfire reminded me of Xu Haofeng's "Master".

Souvenir guests Orange

I also have 4 points. The perfect interpretation of the combination of movement and static, Hashimoto Shinobu's script and Takemitsu Toru's soundtrack, coupled with Miyakaku Yuyu's photography, is a natural creation. Only when you are in faith can you crack the faith, "The fate of other people today may be what you will encounter tomorrow." In "Cutting the Abdomen", there is no clear warrior's resistance and resistance to Bushido, but more or less conflicts between the "pure" Bushido spirit and the regime, rights, and times. The seemingly inflexible armor can't escape its disintegration in the end, and even the perfect repair seems to be in vain. Three gunshots broke the last disguise of the era, the so-called "Bushido", but the body maintained by an illusion deceived itself.

Souvenir guests wind Pro

Good guys. Was besieged by 4.

The film picker means I know her a little bit or two

Teacher Fenglin is going to pick 4 from one.

Souvenir guests Europe. Yin

Hahahahaha.

The host Northwest is gone

Everyone's comments are very interesting. Okay, let's move on to the first question. Although the film is a sword and halberd film, the real official sword and halberd fighting bridges only appeared in the last half hour of the film, giving the whole oppressive and tragic plot a sense of revenge, but at the same time, this setting is also This makes the rhythm and layout of the first half appear slightly slow and lengthy. Do you like this design? Or is it better to distribute the type elements evenly than it is now?

Guest aof

I like it very much. A film in which the true spirit of Bushido has passed away should not have too many fights. And it's worth noting that the fighting period ended with the retainer taking out a gun and firing at Jinyun.

Moderator northwest naught

The design of the gun is indeed very brilliant. The retainers used it to defend the so-called Bushido, but also like to personally knock down the dying spirit that they defended.

Souvenir guests wind Pro

What I want to say is that although I also like this movie, I always feel that it is a bit of a gap between people. Including this arrangement, just like the so-called "pleasure of revenge", this kind of strong narrative of the film to give a bottom class justice the final revenge is actually a cool film setting. We easily got the protagonist's sense of justice through the narration of the movie from the beginning, so does the object of revenge still have a sense of guilt? I think this kind of setting has no sword, light or shadow, but the narrative itself gives tension to the interlocutor. It is an invisible sword and halberd, but it has no lethal power.

Souvenir guests Europe. Yin

I think this film must be designed in this way to achieve its ideographic value. If you add an action scene in the first half, it will destroy the suspense of the protagonist's motivation, and will guide the viewer's attention to the surface rather than the deep connotation that the film intends to point to. Now the action scene at the end is exactly as the host said, there is a sense of release, but this sense of release is full of a huge helplessness. We see that the protagonist will be run over by the wheels of history no matter how awesome he is. These original camps representing "Bushido" are rewriting family letters, and a huge sense of emptiness arises. I may frequently mention "The Deer and the Ding Ji" because they are very similar. Many people who like the "Shooting the Eagles" trilogy can't read "The Deer and Ding Ji" because the protagonist is not a hero, the martial arts is not exciting enough, and the rivers and lakes are not happy enough. Qiu, and the so-called people of this film may feel that the first half is dull, but it is actually the same. This "dullness" is a wonderful experience that must be "anti-type".

Souvenir guests wind Pro

I feel that the protagonist has never given me the feeling of being a weak person since he entered the theater. The movie has given him too much justice and aura. In this way, the attack on Bushido by elevating the front character is very superficial to me.

Moderator northwest naught

In fact, in my opinion, the focus is not on the revenge itself, but on the Jing Yi family's handling of everything that happened after the revenge. This makes the pleasure of revenge in the eyes of the viewers actually dispelled within the plot, and further acquainted with criticism. . Even such a strong and upright male protagonist can only be completely obliterated by Han in the most unfair way in the plot. I think this kind of tragedy is actually the point of poking the audience, not just the pleasure of revenge.

Guest aof

Yes, it seems that everyone is eager to make up the broken window paper, pretending that nothing has happened, and dignifiedly continue to use the deadly Bushido spirit to restore their own face.

Souvenir guests Orange

I don't think this film can be regarded as a pure sword and halberd film like "Cut" and "Great Bodhisattva Ridge". The dramatic features of "Slicing the Belly" are very obvious, and the structure is completely different. "Cut Membrane" contains two parallel stories, one is Jinyun Bansijun's abdominal incision, and the other is Qianqianyan Qiu's previous abdominal incision. Jin Yun and Qian Qianyan Qiu Nu from a certain angle can be regarded as the same person. In my opinion, adding action dramas is just to illustrate Kobayashi’s own views on Pyoshido. One kind of Bushido is pure, the other is shaped by the ruling class for profit. The conflict in "Cutting the Abdomen" encompasses both. Conflict, so the sword and halberd fragments are reduced. And I always feel that, in fact, Kobayashi's attitude towards this point is relatively ambiguous. Sword and halberd fragments are more like touching the virtual with reality.

The host Northwest is gone

Okay, then we just transitioned to the second question. second question. The theme of the film is anti-power and anti-Bushido spirit. It shows the hypocritical power in a highly differentiated social landscape ruthlessly crushing the weak in the name of morality. This is also the most profound and shocking theme expression of the whole film. What do you think of this subject? Do you think the form and content of the film are of great help in presenting this theme?

Souvenir guests wind Pro

At the beginning, he took a book and opened it, and the most narrative power was given to the Ii family, and then the simple transition to the bottom samurai was the one who really knew the truth. But the movie itself is also a narrative, and it is hard for me to wonder if this is also a kind of shovel to give the protagonist legitimacy. I think it would be better if these layers of narratives were made more obscure as in Rashomon, without such obvious directivity.

Moderator northwest naught

Did he shake Bushido? In fact, there is no trace at all on the surface. Maybe, the right holders who can only hope that the evil in the film will still have conscience at some moments. This reminds me of a lyrics. "Every evil will cry." The perspective that Feng Lin talked about, I did not consider this issue when I watched the film, although "telling" does serve as a very important driving force in the film.

Souvenir guests Europe. Yin

It feels different from the emphasis of "Rashomon". "Rashomon" tells the truth about the undetectable matter, which is similar to a kind of truth and a concept, but in fact, it is necessary to pay attention to a specific theme. The establishment and destruction of Bushido, a sigh about the so-called spirit cannot die.

Guest aof

Starting from the book, but talking about the blank space in the middle, and Jinyun came in to narrate, did it deliberately make two comparisons? On the one hand, the real history, on the other hand, the history processed like the end.

Souvenir guests wind Pro

I think this is too obvious to give justice to the protagonist, and it doesn't hurt us much to attack Bushido. It reminds me of many literary stalls saying that history is not the case, let me talk about it in detail. And this also makes the Bushido inside an empty shell. We have almost no other impression except thinking that the Bushido authorities wipe out the truth like almost all attacks on the ruler. And we pay attention that this premise is still in that particular period of history. If we leave the age when the samurai needs to beg for food, can this attack be established? The protagonist played a series of shots to give him momentum. We knew from the very beginning that he was "the strongest two in the real narrative sense" so that Bushido would not be so huge and oppressive.

Souvenir guests Europe. Yin

From my perspective, it is not entirely justice to the protagonist, because the first half of the movie actually guides us to look at the problem from the standpoint of Bushido. Although it can be regarded as a kind of desire and restraint, it does at least allow me to achieve it. In order to identify with the Tokugawa family, although it is not close to human feelings, it does not seem to be evil. The protagonist is justice, and Bushido is the opposite, but in fact, the positions of both sides are well displayed, not inferior.

Souvenir guests Orange

Must Bushido be the opposite? There is no clear statement in the film. The protagonist originally represents a pure Bushido spirit.

Souvenir guests Europe. Yin

Yes, the true Bushido spirit is long gone. This aspect does require a historical and cultural background, but this movie is capable of effectively substituting the audience into the required background, and finally his thematic expression can be promoted, not just limited to Bushido, this is what I think is its universality. In contrast, the taste of saury in the same year, I don't think it can be well substituted into the cultural background.

Guest aof

The definite resistance and resistance of warriors to Bushido is more of a conflict between the "pure" Bushido spirit and politics, rights, and the times. In this kind of "cut belly", I think it faintly contains a positive evaluation or affirmation of the Bushido spirit.

Souvenir guests wind Pro

I think it didn't give an obvious target. I can only understand it as a narrative struggle between a big family who wants to defend the family's reputation and a downturned samurai who realized it was a secret.

Moderator northwest naught

Maybe the real Bushido spirit could still exist in the last era when society was not so strongly differentiated and solidified, and this kind of thing is no longer appropriate in that era that has changed. For example, Iwakun took the samurai sword for money and then replaced it with a bamboo sword. Of course it was contemptible for the kind of Bushido followed by the Ii family, but after all, they couldn't understand the situation of starvation and poverty. It's a bit like Confucius's saying "no respect to ordinary people". Although this sentence is also from the perspective of the right holder.

Souvenir guests Orange

Yes, the opposite is a kind of Bushido shaped by the ruling class for profit. For the true Bushido spirit, Kobayashi and Hashimoto Shinobu both regret it. It can also be said that they love and hate the former. The collapse and extinction of the samurai class is more due to similar external forces than in itself.

Souvenir guests Europe. Yin

I think there is no real anti-Bushido, the opposite is the form, which is the shackles that ideas bring to people.

Guest aof

On the contrary, I feel that Bushido may symbolize loyalty and dignity, but it has been used as a tool of governance in Tokugawa's hands, and even used it to whitewash the unbearable means.

Moderator northwest naught

Perhaps the most horrible thing is that for the Jing Yi family, this whitewashing is a kind of "justice."

Souvenir guests wind Pro

I am still dissatisfied with the narration of "In fact, the truth is not like this, listen to me slowly". I think that his expression of the theme of the movie is a bit flat, and it tells you that the protagonist is right without thinking. , Is here to launch an attack on this system. The unequal power given to one party through the film also destroys a kind of speculation. As for the collapse of the samurai class, it is indeed the inevitability of the times, as everyone said, and Masaki Kobayashi persecuted the samurai in turn against Bushido. Such a regret is indeed as thunderous as the duel in the wind, which can be clearly felt. . Of course, the composition and scheduling of the film have a very strong sense of ritual, and then through the development of the narrative, we can see that this solemn sense of ritual is just a barrier to hypocrisy. For example, several shots of that armor were given in the opening scene (I really like this shot that gradually brightens around the armor), and the movie’s unique wide-screen scheduling in the horizontal Japanese courtyard. There is a housekeeper with a forehead in the foreground and the protagonist. The scene surrounded by swords and guns in the background can be called a magic brush.

The host Northwest is gone

Everyone spoke very well. Then let’s jump out of this perspective a little bit, and enter the third question. Nakadai Tatsuya also participated in another sword halberd film "Tsubaki Tatsuhiro" this year, and in that movie Toshiro Mifune also played the same role. Created a similar samurai role. Set by different people, do you think the performances of Nakadai Tatsuya and Mifune Toshiro in the two films are better?

Guest aof

Each has its own characteristics. The character image of Toshiro Mifune in Tsubaki Thirty Moon is not as serious and restrained as the traditional lion dance, but a character with a sense of joy that is different internally and externally. The characters in "Cutting the Abdomen" are more static, and there are not many other aspects.

Souvenir guests Europe. Yin

I personally prefer Tatsuya Nakadai. The main reason is that the samurai in "Cutting the Abdomen" carries a heavier content, and relatively speaking, there is more room for exertion. And Toshiro Mifune in "Tsubaki Sanjuro" is actually a very familiar image of his screen. It may not be much different from the intentional stick and the Spider's Nest. It is too much a performance in the comfort zone.

Souvenir guests wind Pro

I think these two roles are a bit different. The role of Mifune looks free and is not surrounded by a strong sense of morality and family. I think it's more interesting to unfold the story like that. I feel pretty good about both movies.

The film picker means I know her a little bit or two

Everyone is really great, there is almost no stepping on it.

Moderator northwest naught

On the contrary, I feel that Tatsuya Nakadai doesn't have much room to play in "Tsubaki Juran". (Pull this way)

Guest aof

Yes.

The film picker means I know her a little bit or two

Laugh to death.

Souvenir guests Europe. Yin

Agree, I like Mifune Minjun more in "Tsubaki Thirty Moon".

Souvenir guests Orange

It is obvious that Mifune's performance space in "Tsubaki Sanjuro" is much larger than that of Nakadai Tatsuya, Mifune can be serious and playful, and Nakadai Tatsuya's performance is directly framed by the role.

Souvenir guests wind Pro

But I think Nakadai Tatsuya's voice in "Cut Membrane" is very nice haha.

Souvenir guests Souvenir guests Europe. Yin

Aren't we talking about "Cut Film" hahaha.

Moderator northwest naught

Well, I also think Tatsuya Nakadai is more handsome.

Souvenir guests Orange

Nakadai Tatsuya's performance in "Cutting the Abdomen" is similar to that of "Great Bodhisattva Ridge". Especially the madness of the last paragraph.

The host Northwest is gone

They are all excellent actors. Okay, let's move on to the last question. Director Takashi Miike’s 2011 work "Yi Ming" is a remake of his own film. Compared with the original version, the remake strengthens the "pain" in the scene where Iwaqiu female suicides, and aggravates the portrayal of the tragic situation of Hanshiro and his daughter-in-law. Adding more "worldly conditions" depicting the details of poor life, but correspondingly weakened the fighting period at the end. If you have seen this remake, you can briefly talk about the differences between the two versions, or diverge, and talk about your favorite movies with similar themes.

Guest aof

Never seen the remake. I feel that Xu Haofeng's "Master" tells about the passing of martial arts and "Cutting the Abdomen" is very similar.

Moderator northwest naught

Actually, I haven't thought of "Master" before, and it's really a bit like that when you say so.

Souvenir guests wind Pro

I haven't seen a copy, but listening to your description feels closer to my criticism. Except for "Rashomon", the kind of movies I think of may be Yamada Yoji's "Seihei at Dusk"?

Moderator northwest naught

I also made up for it after watching the original version. I was quite impressed that the scene of Yanqiu's belly-cutting was filmed longer. Miike Chongshi knows all about it, and I added a wooden sword to break and continue to pierce the details. But what surprised me was that he really added a lot of scenes of life in his memories, which seemed to be more humane? If you are interested, you can also check it out. And there are Eita and Hikaru Manshima! (Off topic)

Souvenir guests Europe. Yin

Mu You have seen the remake.

Moderator northwest naught

Can you talk about other movies that remind you of similar?

Souvenir guests Europe. Yin

I haven't thought of anything similar in the samurai movies I've seen. But as I said earlier, the core is closer to "The Deer and the Ding Ji" and "Don Quixote."

The film picker means I know her a little bit or two

Then, is "Tsubaki Thirty Swords" the "Legend of the Condor Heroes"?

Souvenir guests Europe. Yin

right.

Souvenir guests wind Pro

Because I basically only watched Kurosawa Akira in the swordsman movie, I only thought of this movie, which also refers to the changes of the samurai in the changing times. I like the movie "Seihei at Twilight" very much. It is like a story from the perspective of these samurai forced by life, but at that time the samurai no longer had such a strong morality. The protagonist is an unscrupulous warrior who works hard to farm, haha.

Moderator northwest naught

Everyone's divergence is very different, and I have never expected it before (or haven't seen it). This is also very good, showing that excellent works always have many inadvertent commonalities.

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Extended Reading
  • Evans 2022-03-21 09:02:10

    Ethics can eat people, and Bushido can eat people. These are all tragedies under the strong discipline of society. It's a good story, but I'm still indifferent to Kobayashi. The shots and performances are very delicate, even beautiful, but they can't mobilize people's emotions, and even a little irritable at the end, maybe there is something missing in his movie.

  • Janiya 2022-03-28 09:01:04

    There is a story within a story, and there is a truth behind the truth.

Hara-Kiri quotes

  • Hanshiro Tsugumo: The greatest delicacies taste of nothing when one dines alone.

  • Kageyu Saito: The ronin from Hiroshima, Hanshiro Tsugumo, committed hara kiri. All our own men died of illness. The house of Iyi has no retainers who could be felled or wounded by some half-starved ronin.