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Interview with Robert Bresson and Jean Guitton "Interview with Robert Bresson and Jean Guitton" Fall 1962, Études cinématographiques , No. 18-19
On March 2, 1962, at the invitation of the Hulst Association, Robert Bresson and Jean Guidon, authors of a recent paper on Joan of Arc, took place at the French Intellectual Catholic Center had an informal discussion. Ms. Edwige Chevrillon, President of the Hulst Association, kindly sent us a transcript of the meeting.
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Edwig Chevron: Robert Bresson, would you like to talk about your films?
Robert Bresson: I'm going to tell you what struck you the most when I read the "Minutes" of Joan of Arc's trial in preparation for the film.
her young. Her marvelous arrogance in front of the bishops and scholars who were about to put her on the pyre. ("Go away!" "This is not your trial", etc.) In reading the endless interrogation—she seemed less tired than her interrogators—I imagined her dogged replies, Like spears held high, going forward, where they came from, fifteenth-century painters sometimes depicted the second floor high up: the floor designated for matters of the soul, as opposed to the first floor, which represents material reality. Joan of Arc was well aware of the anger she provoked in the hearts of the Inquisitors. But what does it matter? The game has been rigged.
Her lack of caution. This reply: "I have the will to believe it" - is the most astonishing of all the famous replies, in my opinion, because it is the most imprudent, risking the judged in the worst possible way The risk of understanding (they have more or less good beliefs, although later generations condemn them).
her purity. The state of cleanliness and sanitation she requires for herself, for the officers and soldiers she leads, is a state of purity, and without it, she knows that no greatness, no glory can be achieved.
her failure. Her arrest, her burning at the stake. The general rule of "the loser wins". To win, you have to lose. Worse yet: whether she died doubting her destiny, her vocation, that the bishop and his inquisitors tried to infuse into her soul—a sin more cruel than burning her to death— — Doubt?
The comparison of her crucifixion to the crucifixion of Jesus.
As you can imagine, I was struck by many other things. The main thing is the elegance of the language she uses. She responded to the judges with it, never touching a pen. Joan of Arc became a writer. She has written a book, a sheer masterpiece of our literary world. This book is a portrait, the only portrait of her we have. No drawings of her survive, not even sketches. One ink painting that became widespread showed her wearing a skirt, long hair, and holding a large sword. Her eyes were wide and exaggerated. No jaw at all. This is a fake portrait. The style belongs to the time, on the day she arrived in Orléans, on the edge of a register in Paris – then occupied – by a parliamentary clerk who was busy keeping daily records Incident, never seen, and impossible to see Joan of Arc. *
When I was preparing and starting the film last summer, the only thing I was thinking about was not only portraying Joan of Arc in her own words, but making her modern. To bring the past back to the present: this is the particular strength of cinematic writing, so long as it avoids the plague-like style of period costumes. In hindsight, I'm even more aware of how much credit this film owes to Florence Delay, as well as Jean-Claude Fourneau and all my other non-professionals actor.
Jean Guidon just said - intuitively, because he hasn't seen my films - that I am striving for a great simplicity. He said this to please me, because he knew how much I valued simplicity, in a medium whose pendulum was swinging in the direction of overfullness, complexity, and disorder.
The mechanics of this trial didn't require much polish from myself. It was already organized around a drama that was both sublime and brutal. I just added some exclamations from the jurors and Warwick. I cut out a lot of content. The full transcript of the trial recorded by the clerk Manchon would have been endless (with a great deal of repetition) on the screen. Furthermore, dialogue in a movie is not the same as in a play or novel. The words must be extremely condensed so that the accompanying images do not become verbose. I avoid the archaic, but keep it a little so as not to overshadow the very unique character of Joan of Arc's answer. I don't explain anything. I devoted enough time to preparatory and conceptual work. I started this work bit by bit, lest I would lead to a betrayal if I didn't. I have always resisted any kind of fictional or dramatic psychological analysis (images suffice for this), especially with regard to Warwick and Cauchon - any psychological analysis of them would It will alter the tone of {the video} and add to the burden of the video.
I reject - I'll say it again - the costume style, it's never believable. A film is not a play. It has to be original. In short, I want Joan of Arc to look as possible and realistic now as she should have been in the first place—or impossible and unreal.
Jean Guidon: How did you start the film? How does it end?
Bresson: It begins with the first interrogation and ends with the pyre.
Gil-dong: Can we see fire?
Bresson: We can see fire. I had already firmly believed that it was better not to see the fire, but to suggest it. After I took it away, I put it back, took it, put it back, and at the end I kept it. I'll change it later.
Gil-dong: You said that your character has no local or historical color. So is your Joan of Arc out of date? How does she look? Her hair, what she wears: is her style contemporary?
Bresson: There is a way to reduce the emphasis on hair and dress, as you can achieve in painting. Her hairstyle, her menswear is contemporary, arranged as simply as possible in order not to attract attention. I made a decision that she would not show up in a dress. As for the priests, Cochon wore robes like priests today; the Dominicans were Dominicans.
Audience: What about the soldiers? What about their uniforms?
Bresson: Sometimes I put them in the shadows; sometimes I let a back or a hand be seen, or just let their footsteps reverberate. This elimination, this reduction, is actually very important.
Audience: We won't see spectators in period costumes?
Bresson: When {Joan of Arc} took the oath of renunciation, and around the pyre at the end, a considerable crowd gathered. The crowd is there, it's there, we feel it. We can't see it. A clear view of the medieval crowd would create a break in the film, or would be reminiscent of drama and its pretense. I keep very little information from the Middle Ages. Jean Guidon talks about a kind of "re-naissance"** - I want Joan of Arc to be born as a result of this film.
Gil-dong: How do you deal with the monotony of reading trial transcripts?
Bresson: The challenge is to construct a film entirely out of questions and answers. But I happily use this monotony as a unifying backdrop where subtlety comes to the fore. I was more nervous about the slowness and heaviness of the trial. So I started hard and then proceeded at a rather brisk pace. You can write a movie in hooks and double hooks because a movie is music. Film writing does not exist, and film does not exist in copying life, but in moving people with a rhythm that is under the control of the author all the time. We should not look for truth in facts, in living beings or objects ("realism", which doesn't exist because it is usually constructed), but in the emotions they provoke. Emotional truth teaches and guides us.
It seems to me that the emotion in this case, in this trial, in this film, should be drawn not only by the death of Joan of Arc, but by what we hear when she talks about what she hears or talks about To the crown and the angel, or whatever she might speak of one of us, the strange air we breathe when speaking of this jug or this glass...
- What does the crown look like? - Made of gold, set with precious stones. —The angel who brought it, did he come from above or from the earth? —from on high...I mean he came by the commandments of the Father. —Did he come in through the door? - He used to go.
What Saint Ignatius would ask for a century later—this familiarity with the apparently sensible supernatural—Joan of Arc, so gifted she had it effortlessly. Saint Ignatius did not know that he was a saint, until he died. One of the most touching things about Joan of Arc is that, at seventeen, she became the object of worship of a pagan group—and she fought against it. Her answer to the judges was admirable: "Many people came to me, and they kissed my clothes as much as I could bear. However, the poor came to me because I did not keep them from Joy."
Audience: Do you represent Joan of Arc from the point of view of sainthood?
Bresson: I present her as she paints herself. I want to stay true to the facts, and in this film I reject uncertainty in favor of keeping only what is known. I now think of the final moments of {video}, when the transcript of the trial is over and we must turn to the testimony of the witnesses at the vindication trial. The testimonies don't always match up. For example, one witness said that Joan of Arc put on men's clothes again, to protect herself against the English soldiers after promising not to do so; another, her confessor, insisted that the English had brought her Her skirt was hidden in a bag to force her back into menswear. These are people of faith who have had close contact with her. And the issue of men's clothing is not unimportant.
We do our best not to place the greatness of Joan of Arc's life in uncertainty. One thing we do know for sure: she is not the ignorant peasant of legend. At Chinon, she became reliable friends and equals with the highest nobles, whom she later commanded militarily, and instructed them in the use of artillery. She has ridden great horses. She was graceful, a royal grace, not that she was a relative of Charles VII or anything. He was blamed at the trial for his gold crown and fur coat.
Another real, poignant fact: the sheer amount of tears she shed before she died. I am reminded of a line from Leonardo De Vinci's Notebooks . Before death, he said, the soul weeps because it must be separated from the body, which is a marvelous thing. Joan of Arc had a very beautiful body: "I laugh at death. But I don't want to be burned to ashes."
Audience: During the trial, Joan said she signed an "X" on the order against her will.
Bresson: This has been discussed a lot. There are also reports that she cannot write.
Audience: However, does she have letters left?
Bresson: Yes, it's a transcript, but it has her own signature on the letter. There is no indication that Joan could not write. You could say she is a more perfect and sensitive being than we are. She combines her five senses in a new way. She could see the strange noise she heard. She convinces us of a world that exists within the limits of our faculties. She penetrated this supernatural world, but she closed the door behind her.
Audience: Joan of Arc said, "I was scared because I was a kid. But he taught me so much - I believe he was Saint Michael."
Gil-dong: She also said something more philosophical than that: "I have the will to believe it." It's profound. Proving that nothing externally imposed itself upon her will.
Bresson: This will to believe is not just about St. Michael. When she was asked, "How did you know it was St. Michael?" she replied, "Because he had the voice of an angel." - How did you know it was an angel's voice? - "Because I have the will to believe it." A will that strengthened the vision. She needs this will to live in the kingdom of {God}.
Gildong: The need for obedience, the need for achievement. The virgin, even at the time of her Annunciation, obeyed her will.
Bresson: Throughout this trial, what is most admirable about Joan of Arc is the heroism, because of which Joan gave her life unhurriedly, for the meaning of her life. After taking the oath of renunciation, she regroups, then loses herself, in order to save herself. "I didn't want to abandon my vision at the time. Everything I did was out of fear of fire."
Notes:
Jean Guitton (1901-1999) French Catholic theologian, philosopher, educator and writer, discussed the contradiction between human belief and human reason in many works.
Film Studies ( Études cinématographiques ), a French magazine published in 1960, with irregular circulation, founded by Henri Agel (1911-2008) and Georges-Albert Astre, Focuses on the analysis of films and filmmakers, and does not pay attention to news.
Hulst is a city in the southwest of the Netherlands.
Orléans is a city in central France that runs through the Loire River. Joan of Arc led the people here to defeat the English occupying forces during the Hundred Years' War (Guerre de Cent Ans) (1337-1453).
* The name of the instrument is Clément de Fauquembergue, and the picture is believed to be dated May 10, 1429. Joan of Arc arrived at Orleans on April 29, 1429.
Florence Delay (1941-) is a French actress, writer and translator. Joan of Arc is played in this film.
Jean-Claude Fourneau (1907-1981) French painter close to André Breton and Surrealism. The film plays the bishop of Cauchon.
Warwick refers to Richard Beauchamp, 13th Earl of Warwick (1382-1439), an English aristocrat, officer, and diplomat who succeeded to the title in 1401. Since the beginning of the fifteenth century, he has participated in the Hundred Years' War for many years, and has participated in many diplomatic negotiations at the same time. From 1430 to 1432 he went to France with the young King Henry VI, where he attended the trial and execution of Joan of Arc. Died in 1439 at the Château Bouvreuil, where he lived with the king.
Guillaume Manchon, French priest, one of the instruments of Joan of Arc's trial. About four years after the trial, he collaborated on translating the records into Latin. In 1450, Charles VII authorized an investigation, and he was one of seven witnesses interviewed.
Pierre Cauchon (1371-1442) French priest, bishop of Beauvais from 1420 to 1432, an Anglophile in the Hundred Years' War, was the leading figure in the trial of Joan of Arc. When Beauvais came under French control, he was forced to leave, and from 1432 until his death served as bishop of Lisieux.
The Dominican Order (Ordo Dominicanorum in Latin) was formally established in 1216 as a Catholic church founded in France by the Spanish priest and astronomer Domingo de Guzmán (1170-1221). Society, dedicated to evangelism, and known for its intellectual traditions.
** "Rebirth" is the literal meaning of the word "Renaissance".
Hooks and double hooks (Hooks and double hooks) The original meaning of hook is hook. As a slang word, it means a means of attracting interest and attention, such as a sales hook; there are also pleasant theme phrases or stacks in music. sentence meaning.
Saint Ignatius of Loyola (Ignacio de Loyola in Spanish, 1491-1556) was a Catholic priest and theologian in the Basque Country of Spain. Enlisted in the army at the age of 17, he was shot at the Battle of Pamplona in 1521 and was seriously wounded in the leg before retiring. During his recuperation, he cultivated spiritual life through reading and practice, and later entered several universities to study theology until 1534. In 1539, he founded the Society of Jesus (Jesuit) with six alumni of the University of Paris. In 1540, it was officially recognized by the Pope, and in 1541, he served as its first "commander-in-chief". The Jesuits were the main force of the Counter-Reformation movement. In 1548, his early work, Exercitia spiritualia , was finally published. Canonized in 1622.
Chinon is a town in central France, located in the Loire Valley. It was here on March 8, 1429, that Joan of Arc met with Charles VII, who would be crowned four months later, and what happened during this period became the turning point of the Hundred Years' War.
Charles VII (1403-1461) King of France, nicknamed le Victorieux (le Victorieux), loyal to duty (le Bien-Servi). He was crowned on July 17, 1429. Defeat England in 1453, ending the Hundred Years' War.
Leonardo De Vinci (1452-1519) was an artist, scientist and engineer in the Republic of Florence (now Italy). A polymath of the Renaissance era, known as one of the greatest painters in history, his inventive thinking was ahead of his time.
Manuscripts ( Notebooks ) refers to the large number of notes Leonardo da Vinci wrote in his life, most of which are scattered in the hands of his friends, mostly written in mirrored cursive, often with pictures and texts. It was not until the middle of the seventeenth century that scholars began to organize the work.
Saint Michael (Hebrew name לאֵכָימִ) is an archangel in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. In the Bible's New Testament • Revelation, he led God's army to defeat Satan. He is depicted in Catholic literature as the guardian of the Church.
Annunciation originally refers to the archangel Gabriel in Christianity who showed the Virgin Mary to the Virgin Mary, informing her that she would be conceived by the Holy Spirit and give birth to the Son of God, who should be named Jesus. Here is a comparison.
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